tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post7806113702762649846..comments2024-02-29T02:06:59.726-09:00Comments on Fumbling Towards Endurance: The Need For Speed?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-35833536963930377942010-12-07T19:27:42.287-09:002010-12-07T19:27:42.287-09:00It seems that you are dealing with what guys like ...It seems that you are dealing with what guys like Nate Jenkins, and more locally Lucho have encountered: the challenges of living at 8000 plus feet. If I recall correctly, you had a period of feeling sort of out of sorts when you were first up there - another common thing. (I lived in Ned for a bit and dealt with it as well, and I still get it occasionally when I sneak off to Fairplay).<br /><br />Altitude has its rewards, but it has a backside that is tough too.<br /><br />Do you think for 50s runs at lower elevations (Boulder) would make a significant difference, or is that still too high (compared to AK)?GZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12623054918799881730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-52802226216207768242010-12-07T13:02:52.964-09:002010-12-07T13:02:52.964-09:00good question george.
my take on the way i felt al...good question george.<br />my take on the way i felt all day in marin is that living at 8,500ft. is a double edged sword. it was awesome to never get my hear rate and breathing up very high all day but i feel like my average training pace since moving to colorado is probably about 5% slower than when i live at sea level. i think overall this makes me a stronger runner at races with lots of climbing but my top end speed on race day does feel a little bit lower than previous. i don't think this is from a lack of speed training. i think it's just that my typical 2-5 hour steady runs are run at a slightly slower pace because of the altitude and that's become the pace that i get dialed into on the flatter stretches of a race.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-63581283927298781972010-12-07T08:17:27.396-09:002010-12-07T08:17:27.396-09:00Geoff - congratulations on a great race in Marin. ...Geoff - congratulations on a great race in Marin. Well done.<br /><br />I apologize in advance if this question comes across as a bit "jerky" but ... <br /><br />... I heard that perhaps you were contemplating you desired a bit more turnover towards the finish. In light of this post, that experience, any changes of heart or thought? <br /><br />(and even if you have a different opinion now for YOU specifically, I don't think that changes your broader message for MOST folks)GZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12623054918799881730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-15577946692029357122010-12-03T16:37:37.721-09:002010-12-03T16:37:37.721-09:00Interesting points of view on all accounts....most...Interesting points of view on all accounts....most interesting is that three of the best ultra distance runners in the country, if not the world (Geoff, Anton and Karl) all seem to have the same approach to formal speed work....that's enough for me. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-91869117164972953782010-12-03T04:14:56.602-09:002010-12-03T04:14:56.602-09:00Great post -I am a new follower and am really happ...Great post -I am a new follower and am really happy to have come here. I hadn't thought about it this way before, and it makes a lot of sense. I am definitely stronger at tougher terrain, although I am no speed demon. I have spent a lot of time on the roads training because that is what I am racing now..but I am happiest when I jump on the trail and start climbing.<br /><br />Good luck on Sat!Caratunk Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00042653100322091843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-69331634657993667972010-12-02T09:25:41.822-09:002010-12-02T09:25:41.822-09:00Thanks Geoff,
Great post,I read your blog searchi...Thanks Geoff, <br />Great post,I read your blog searching and researching for tips for my own training. This post held many for me. Training in Northern Illinois can be challenging during the winter months, every year I debate the merits of the dreadmill vs. running through the snow. Your post made my decision easier for me. Outdoors it is ! as it should be.Eric Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01909792721035477227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-51133189961588183962010-12-01T12:32:52.782-09:002010-12-01T12:32:52.782-09:00so in more direct words i think you just need to a...so in more direct words i think you just need to accept that training to mazimize your potential in a road marathon is going to decrease your potential at 100 mile races. if it doesn't you're probably not training properly for the marathon.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-52063908720604797582010-12-01T12:29:44.775-09:002010-12-01T12:29:44.775-09:00brick,
that's a tough question. that's ba...brick,<br />that's a tough question. that's basically my whole point here. i really don't think you can be tuned to do well at 2 things so diverse as a road marathon and a trail 100 miler at the same time. Right now i'm tuned to run hilly, technical ultras. i'd be shocked if i could break 2:30 in a marathon this weekend. with some marathon specific training though i suspect i could run 2:30 quite comfortably, but my 50 and 100 mile performances would drop. running a road marathon and running something like wasatch or hardrock or utmb (the races that i really excel at and try to tune my body for) are as different from each other as a 400m is from a 5k. yeah, it's all running, but the methods to tuning our bodies to each of these distances/terrains are vastly different.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-43644193706906307092010-12-01T12:06:52.023-09:002010-12-01T12:06:52.023-09:00Anton and Geoff or anybody else for that matter....Anton and Geoff or anybody else for that matter.<br /><br />What do you think would be the best mix of training for somebody who has done many 100km/100mile race and wants to have a good crack at a Marathon but still do long Ultra's?<br /><br />Add speed work?<br />Add more hills/strength?<br /><br />Interested in your opinions.Brickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00371855722340398818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-59266686592546556092010-12-01T11:33:27.701-09:002010-12-01T11:33:27.701-09:00Good post Tony. I still think you'd be very p...Good post Tony. I still think you'd be very pleasantly surprised if you ran a 5k right now though.Collinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05882255798970434656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-21725497621422712102010-12-01T08:24:13.118-09:002010-12-01T08:24:13.118-09:00This comment has been removed by the author.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11148317903654491236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-54800666159106225502010-12-01T08:20:53.276-09:002010-12-01T08:20:53.276-09:00This comment has been removed by the author.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11148317903654491236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-59697260677271162262010-12-01T08:20:34.911-09:002010-12-01T08:20:34.911-09:00This comment has been removed by the author.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11148317903654491236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-56649693286981346492010-12-01T08:20:20.303-09:002010-12-01T08:20:20.303-09:00Three more points:
1) Incidentally, I currently p...Three more points:<br /><br />1) Incidentally, I currently plan on doing one interval session a week in my next build-up, mostly because I'm planning on running a number of flat, fast races in the first four months of the year. Basically, I'll be replacing one high-intensity charge up Green with ~30min worth of high-intensity flat running: a subtle, but I think important shift in preparation for races that are predominantly flat (a la Dave's contribution).<br /><br />2) Further up the comments list I think someone mentioned Matt Carpenter's training for his record run at the LT100 and how speed-focused it was. I have talked to Matt extensively about this issue, and he has repeatedly admitted to me that he probably errs too much on the speed side of things and especially did so in prep for Pb that year because he also wanted to win the Teva 10K Championships in June and BTMR (12mi) in July. He has openly admitted to me that his training for Pb was not optimal 100miler training and thinks that he trained much more optimally for ultras the year he won the TNF50 when he extended his long run to 5hr. However, he never neglected his speed during that build-up either.<br /><br />I talked to him specifically about this issue in regards to my epic blow-up at the LT100 in 2009 and how I was maybe considering doing some speedwork (because LT is such a flat course and on the flat sections is where Matt's splits out-pace me) and, of course, his response was spot-on: why would I think my speed was deficient when earlier in the summer I had smoked the White River 50 course? His opinion was that the WR50 showed that I had more than enough speed to break the LT100 record but that I had other issues (not enough taper, poor pacing, fueling, etc., etc.). He simply trains with speedwork because his whole career he has been preparing for much shorter races. (As a side note, although 15:43 at Leadville is very very very fast, I am about 100% sure that five years ago Matt was capable of running even faster than that had he included more long runs. He generally agrees that 15:43 wasn't a maxed-out performance there.)<br /><br />3) Contrary to what some people have posited, I really don't have a ton of legspeed. My 400m PR is 60.8 seconds. That's laughably slow. Mile=4:44 (at altitude). True, I'm sure I could improve my 16:31 5K PR, but I don't think I could take it any faster than 5min pace (15:40ish). Sure, a 16:30 5K PR is way faster than a lot of mid-pack ultrarunners, but I think Geoff's point is that there are lots and lots of other front-pack dudes who would lap me in a 5K (maybe even twice!), but who I can beat handily in a hilly 50 miler. In fact, we don't even need to look at 5Ks...I mean, Uli's MARATHON PR pace is almost 15sec/mile faster than my 5K PR pace (wow). And yet I am competitive with him over a mountainous 50 miler. Geoff's position is obviously valid and compelling.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11148317903654491236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-61197008169175069902010-12-01T08:19:52.743-09:002010-12-01T08:19:52.743-09:00Nice debate you have going here, Geoff. I think i...Nice debate you have going here, Geoff. I think it just shows what nerds we all are and that we all tend to think about this topic (how to train) a fair bit.<br /><br />My take:<br />Obviously, I'm largely in Geoff's camp on this issue.<br />In college I did a ton of speedwork and quickly found that I raced MUCH better off of little to no speedwork than not. By the end of my junior year I was so frustrated that I convinced the coach to just let me do long runs and long trail tempos and within three weeks I PRed in both the 800 and 1500. So, that is part of where my perspective comes from. My body, apparently, just doesn't respond as well to a lot of high-intensity running.<br /><br />But, I agree with the commenter above who says it's a matter of balance and I also think it depends on what kind of race you're running. Ben N brought up road 50Ks while I know Geoff and I aren't generally training for those. So, we're talking rule of specificity, and that, combined with my love for mountains, is what I've always used to drive my training choices. Plus, everyone is different. I had friends in college who ran GREAT off of tons of speedwork.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11148317903654491236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-52157572810434515302010-12-01T06:28:01.216-09:002010-12-01T06:28:01.216-09:00Hi Geoff,
I never post comments, just not my thing...Hi Geoff,<br />I never post comments, just not my thing, however, I must say it's great to hear from someone who really gets it! I agree completely. <br /><br />You nailed it buddy, best of luck...<br />GillGillnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-14296782347543645662010-11-30T22:25:12.163-09:002010-11-30T22:25:12.163-09:00Geoff, your training philosophy is just my style a...Geoff, your training philosophy is just my style and I'm stickin' to it. I ran my first 100 miler this month, the Pinhoti, using this training style. <br />I talked to several people who scratched, and they talked about the rough trail.<br />I trained here in AK and to be honest, Crow Pass was one of the easier runs I did this summer, trail wise. Many of my long "runs" were off trail, rutted out 4-wheeler trails, mining trails, etc.<br />Building the desire to go beyond what I was used to, was my best and most enjoyable training.<br />I will admit, the Pinhoti trail was rougher than I expected, but that fact made it even more enjoyable.Karls Killer Kilometerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00395769255439810034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-76755537021182378032010-11-30T22:21:18.843-09:002010-11-30T22:21:18.843-09:00interesting point. So we assume that the top guys ...interesting point. So we assume that the top guys are all pretty similar paced on the "easy sections". Makes complete sense. I have seen it often that a race is won on technical downs or really hard climbs. Thanks for answering a question I posed here: http://leorust.blogspot.com/2010/10/what-does-it-take-to-win.htmlleohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08973868395484345672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-7492944668272623902010-11-30T20:48:11.653-09:002010-11-30T20:48:11.653-09:00This comment has been removed by the author.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-22268779243405213352010-11-30T20:48:03.357-09:002010-11-30T20:48:03.357-09:00This comment has been removed by the author.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-15381751425466269962010-11-30T20:46:57.037-09:002010-11-30T20:46:57.037-09:00This comment has been removed by the author.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-78280452937192309302010-11-30T20:46:46.289-09:002010-11-30T20:46:46.289-09:00Lots of interesting comments here. Guess I struck...Lots of interesting comments here. Guess I struck a bit of a nerve with this one. Just goes to show how different we each are.<br /><br />a couple more thoughts I want to add:<br />i'm not lobbying for higher mileage over speed work at all. i'm not a fan of very high mileage training. i generally stay in the 60-110 mile range (fairly average for ultra). but often a huge chunk of this mileage is hiking up steep mountains or trudging through snow. just time on the feet building up strength and enjoying being outside. <br /><br />I do have a bit of speed (15:10 5k, 4:29 mile) but I couldn't come close to running that fast in either of these distances right now. I could likely change my training up a lot for a couple months and run these kinds of times again but if I did so I am quite certain that my 50 mile and 100 mile fitness would be greatly compromised. I just don't think you can have it all. The reason (in my mind) for this is that speed races (let's say marathon and below) are generally decided by who can sustain the fastest steady pace for the full duration of the race. Trail ultras (especially 50 miles and above) on the other hand are very sporadic in pacing and are generally decided not by the times in the race that we are running the fastest but rather by the times in the race when we are running the slowest. the runners who can run the slowest parts of the race faster than others (i.e. big climbs, extrememly technical stretches, or really late in the race) will win most every trail ultra. that is to say the runner with the most strength, endurance, and technical ability. <br /><br />it's a fun point to argue, but at the end of the day what it boils down to for me more than anything is that I just like to go out and run each day. this may be the biggest positive factor. just really enjoying what we're doing. maybe one of these days i'll actually feel like going down to the track and running intervals again, but i find it very unlikely that it's going to make me a better 50 or 100 mile trail runner than running trails in the mountains would.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-58654661991414645582010-11-30T20:19:34.925-09:002010-11-30T20:19:34.925-09:00I'm with Dave. I would bet that shorter dista...I'm with Dave. I would bet that shorter distance times correlate pretty well with ultra times. Maybe not 5k, but probably 10k or half marathon times. <br /><br />One thing to keep in mind that has not been brought up is that you usually run pretty fast at certain times in hilly ultras, especially near San Francisco. The leaders are probably getting below 6 minute pace on the downhills. <br /><br />Since most people don't do both shorter races and harder trail ultras, there doesn't seem to be much practical data on the usefulness of speed. Several of the European ultra runners are clearly fast on the roads or shorter trail races. Both Geoff and Anton have plenty of natural leg speed. People that tend to have natural speed don't need to work on it.<br /><br />An interesting parallel to this is with short distance mountain running. Years ago, many would say that you didn't need to be fast to make the US mountain running team. While I saw some really fast guys walking at Washington this year, that team that went over to Worlds was pretty quick.<br /><br />I'll agree with Geoff that the connection is not as strong between speed work and ultra running, but if 5 min pace is easy for 5k, 6's will be easy for a marathon, and 7 min pace will be easy for a 50. If 6 min pace feels fast, 7 min will be harder to run after a few hours. I would guess that Uli was doing faster long runs than Geoff last year prior to San Francisco, which made the pace from 30-40 miles feel easier to him.<br /><br />I think one confound to this discussion is that you often see fast runners that don't do much strength training race poorly at difficult ultras. You can't conclude that faster running is not important. Of course, you can also add inefficient pacing, nutrition issues, and trail endurance to that list of potential confounds for many fast runners. My point is, if you were able to hold all the other variables constant between two groups of ultra runners, the group doing more speedwork would be faster.<br /><br />I've only been running ultras for 6-7 years, but I've been running shorter distances during the same span pretty often. My best road 50ks have been when I was in great road 5k and short trail race shape, and my best trail 50 milers have been when I was in good 50k shape.Ben Nephewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04819864580010023523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-3758788469179995412010-11-30T20:09:22.754-09:002010-11-30T20:09:22.754-09:00Two more comments. It's difficult to identify ...Two more comments. It's difficult to identify cause/effect relationships. You saw a big increase in performance after increasing your mileage, and likely it played an important role, but there are many other factors that may also have strongly influenced the effect you observed.<br /><br />Secondly, I think it doesn't have to be one or the other--strength or speed. As with almost anything in life, finding a balance is important. In my opinion, strength without speed will not achieve optimal results. And speed without strength will not (just ask Usain Bolt). I think we just need to find the right balance between the two, not pick one or the other.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06952466893128017717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-58083708887790947922010-11-30T17:12:07.743-09:002010-11-30T17:12:07.743-09:00Or it might leave you hurt too.Or it might leave you hurt too.GZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12623054918799881730noreply@blogger.com