tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post7738321660809126503..comments2024-02-29T02:06:59.726-09:00Comments on Fumbling Towards Endurance: "The Championship Race"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-55263903405519004072011-02-11T12:04:33.695-09:002011-02-11T12:04:33.695-09:00If the F.S. is such a problem, why not try another...If the F.S. is such a problem, why not try another landowner as Karl has done? Kennecott owns something like half the Oquirrh mountains and has a nice area for start/finish right by their headquarters in the Daybreak community (big park with lakes, etc.) Soon people will even be able to take TRAX there from downtown SLC or the airport. A course could run all over the east side of the range, passing through Kennecot land's proposed ski area, past the mine, etc, with maybe a few dips down to the bottom to pass through some of the mountain-foot communities like Bingham. Developing a race course would probably involve some trail-building to link together existing trails and old mining roads, but there are a lot of routes already there & Kennecott seems to be looking at promoting access to outdoor recreation as a selling point as they plan transitioning the property from mining to residential and vacation development. If someone could convince them that sponsoring a race is in their interest....who knows?nordicnomadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16459899558281369817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-30991155840089750402011-02-10T11:34:26.257-09:002011-02-10T11:34:26.257-09:00I would even argue that an event like this might b...I would even argue that an event like this might benefit the top female ultrarunners MORE than the men. Since there is less internet buzz around the top women, picking a competitive women's race is a complete crap shoot with the current state of things (although that can also be a perk cuz really spectacular women can show up to a random ultra and find themselves in contention for winning the open division. I can't think of any other running events where women frequently have the opportunity for that special thrill :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-48811729233360376322011-02-02T18:28:30.271-09:002011-02-02T18:28:30.271-09:00The problem with just getting together a bunch of ...The problem with just getting together a bunch of top runners and deciding to go run a desirable 100 that doesn't fill up (e.g. bear or bighorn) is that you are never going to end up with nearly as many of the top runners as an event that is setup specifically to draw top runners. many people who are more out of the loop just aren't going to know about it. it might happen with decent success once or twice, but it's not something that's going to happen year after year. when runners talk about wanting a race that has as many top runners as possible i think they're generally talking about dozens of top runners. an event designed specifically for this could bring in several dozen. a casual agreement among friends to show up and run bighorn or bear might bring half a dozen top guys together. this just isn't what i'm talking about here though. we already have this a few times a year (including this weekend at Rocky Raccoon). i'm talking about something much larger in terms of the amount of top runners. <br /><br />Kris,<br />I think you're totally missing the point. This has nothing to do with validation by some association or governing body. I think the lack of interest in the USATF "championship" events proves this quite well. what I (and any runners i've talked about this with) want is a race that is focused on having as many top runners racing one event as possible. we all want to run in one big race together, not to feel validated, but for the thrill and comraderie of the competition. if we were simply wanting the validation of running an event that had a fancy acronym and called itself a "championship" we'd all be running the usatf races. but, since the usatf does almost nothing to start the snowball effect of getting numerous top runners to their events then no one follows along with this because there is basically no one to follow. as far as the gender thing: this demand totally transcends gender lines. i've talked to several female runners who are just as interested in this as any men i've talked to about it.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-73783845688541984122011-01-31T18:11:33.255-09:002011-01-31T18:11:33.255-09:00Geoff, on paper the atomic bomb worked and so did ...Geoff, on paper the atomic bomb worked and so did it practice.Krishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08649849068889638443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-14904972407681648292011-01-31T18:10:43.186-09:002011-01-31T18:10:43.186-09:00I don't understand why you men (I'm a woma...I don't understand why you men (I'm a woman), need to feel validated by USATF, ESPN, IAAF etc. Why don't just run? Who cares?! Women are second class citizens when in comes to sports (like funding or fans). Do you see us always whining? NO! Lets keep sports real.Krishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08649849068889638443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-13993978010883978492011-01-30T21:06:21.071-09:002011-01-30T21:06:21.071-09:00I agree with a lot of the ideas thrown out and app...I agree with a lot of the ideas thrown out and appreciate the discussion. I prefer looking to what we can do instead of our limitations, but we have to look realistically at our sport. Comparing our sport to most others won't work. We are a niche market. What single track trail can hold 1000 runners? I love watching running, especially ultras, but most folks don't care much about watching a man or woman look exhausted for hours and progressively run slower and slower. Which requires an answer to how we get spectators at our events and watching or following on TV. The Kona Ironman has 1800 spots at $550 min. entry fee, that's $990,000. Plus this event gets big sponsors. It offers a $580,000 prize purse. Big money=big competition. I don't know of a trail event that can get close to that type of money. I don't think a trail championship really needs that type of money, but it needs something significant. Plus it must have media coverage, TV, maybe a cable network like Versus. I would prefer to see multiple distances on different types of courses. Or actually for my personal race preferences, all the courses would be absurdly steep and technical, nothing flat or smooth. Anyway, I think one event may need to be the starting point, but I think major sponsors (prize money) and media coverage are the key.<br /><br />My personal experience is that it is tough to get sponsors or media coverage. I'll also mention here that USATF MUT(Mountain, Ultra, Trail) is doing all we can to work within the system to promote our sport. It doesn't cost anything for a race to bid to host a USATF Championship, but prize money is required, any prize money, $100. (There is a USATF sanctioning cost if awarded the championship, about $150.) Most championship distances had only one race even bid to host. MUT would welcome more races bidding. Back to my personal experience, there was no bid for the trail 10K a couple of years ago, so me and small group of friends started a new event. A friend said it was a race that didn't exist on a course that didn't exist. It was a great learning experience as I learned how hard starting and putting on a race is. As a runner, I appreciate race staff more than ever. For our championship race we have a $5000 prize purse. That has helped get better competition, but we'd need more to really bring in a deep field. But we only bring in about $8000 total; entries, sponsors, other. Until we can find a deep pocket sponsor, we'll be a small race.<br /><br />In a closing thought, is this one "true championship" what we really want? Our 10K has a "hanging out with friends" feel to it. I like that about our sport. If someone wants a 10K Trail championship, they can come to our race and fight for it. If they want big money, they'll have to go elsewhere. I'm not against a big prize money championship though, just not sure ultra running or trail running is there, yet.<br /><br />If any races are interested in bidding for a USATF championship, I'd be glad to help you out. Or I'll help anyone starting any event.<br /><br />By the way, I do run ultras as well as mountain and trail races. Just my thoughts.<br />JasonMountain Goathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06461950075901993970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-24554134791458071902011-01-29T16:35:23.015-09:002011-01-29T16:35:23.015-09:00karl,
the x games idea is intriguing for sure.
je...karl, <br />the x games idea is intriguing for sure.<br />jen, same thing with the reservation idea. seems worth thinking more about.<br />kris,<br />it's all relative. elites are simply the top runners who are currently competing. there are a thousand runners out there who, on paper, could dominate the current ultra scene, but until they do that doesn't mean a damn thing. and history has shown that more often than not the "on paper" runner doesn't find ultras quite as easy as most people expect them too. <br />more Matt C. types? i assume you mean Matt in his prime a few years back. there is probably one person in the world right now who has that kind of potential running challenging terrain in the mountains and I look very forward to the two times that I'll be racing him this year.Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-8504823699202295422011-01-29T15:06:53.550-09:002011-01-29T15:06:53.550-09:00Until you get more Matt Carpenter types then you c...Until you get more Matt Carpenter types then you can cal yourselves "eltite."Krishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08649849068889638443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-47297377984932781452011-01-29T15:05:48.987-09:002011-01-29T15:05:48.987-09:00Who are the true elites? Ultrarunning competion la...Who are the true elites? Ultrarunning competion lacks depth.Krishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08649849068889638443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-24297163914043650252011-01-29T11:53:35.472-09:002011-01-29T11:53:35.472-09:00This discussion focused on USFS/federal permitting...This discussion focused on USFS/federal permitting is leaving out a fairly major group of landowners with some spectacular scenery: the tribes. There are some pretty large reservations not too far from major airports. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if some tribal councils would be very interested in having such an event on their lands. The only issue for most reservations would be the "major population center(s)" criterion. (I can't remember - how far out from Flag is the Navajo Reservation?) There might be an extra component in designing the route on some reservations, as well. (Most of the hiking and running I've done on reservations has been off-trail doing field work or on unofficial trails. I can't remember ever being on an official/mapped trail, actually, so exploration would likely be required!) An alternative to keep in mind, anyway.Jenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15729807335731413906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-64185287094403939662011-01-29T10:36:46.596-09:002011-01-29T10:36:46.596-09:00Karl,
At first glance I have to admit your X Game...Karl,<br /><br />At first glance I have to admit your X Games idea seemed pretty silly to me. But upon a bit of reflection I think I judged too quickly. A NF TV ad running in the last year features clips of several "extreme" sports spliced together...and there's a trail runner in there. While ultrarunning lacks the immediate Holy S@!t factor of people flying through the air, no one can deny that running 100 miles up and down mountains is pretty bad ass. And as you rightly point out, X Games has always embraced fringe sports. Marketed properly I think it could work. Definitely seems worth pursuing to me.Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04957133773732678319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-43849758193810262412011-01-29T06:58:04.440-09:002011-01-29T06:58:04.440-09:00Eric, If we run a fat ass 100 and all the fast peo...Eric, If we run a fat ass 100 and all the fast people show up and a there is a purse. People would come to watch, thus creating an "event". I know that sounds silly, but I bet it would happen that way. The FS would show up and make it complicated, especially if we went into wilderness of even a national park. <br /><br />But I had a better vision while running yesterday....Think about this. Summer X-Games? Bingo...TV coverage in place, already on freakin' TV, venue in place, media in place, and the possibility of big time sponsors mean bigger $$$. We need to approach them to see what happens. The X-Games brought silly snowboard half pipe (although its sick to watch) and other "judged" events to the olympics, maybe this could be a real stepping stone for the future. Think about that for a minute. <br /><br />Hone, yah, I heard Ashland is mostly dirt roads, maybe not the spot, I just wanted Mr. Koerner to get involved. He's got nothing else to do. :-)Speedgoat Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06938342832238975059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-35258758420380163442011-01-29T05:07:35.130-09:002011-01-29T05:07:35.130-09:00there are a number of high quality mountain 100s t...there are a number of high quality mountain 100s that are still open registration: Bear and Bighorn come to mind off the top of my head . . . worry about a rotating championship, a championship race (a.k.a Boston Marathon style), or a reserved 10 spots at some of the classic races later . . . and simply create the race you guys keep saying you want so desperately this year by deciding on an open race and registering. Since the open races tend to be "low key" events you may even want to run the notion by the RDs before you all sign up overnight . . .japhrunshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16291390981850688335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-15297209508353507152011-01-28T18:49:55.434-09:002011-01-28T18:49:55.434-09:00Has anyone ever read Flanagan's Run? Similar ...Has anyone ever read Flanagan's Run? Similar concept.Runner, Writer, Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00402722931634090169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-15586698074880618672011-01-28T15:48:57.011-09:002011-01-28T15:48:57.011-09:00Karl said: The idea of a bunch of us throwing down...Karl said: <i>The idea of a bunch of us throwing down money and winner takes all....someone would get a wiff of that and try to stop it. If it were publicized it would not happen, thus not making it an event.</i><br /><br />Why so? Fatasses don't get cancelled. This would simply be a small fatass with less participants, more spectators, and there'd happen to be a purse.<br /><br />What am I missing?Eric@URPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09225677861906443935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-50688278156017075202011-01-28T13:21:14.021-09:002011-01-28T13:21:14.021-09:00Also what in the hell is up with Corle? My word t...Also what in the hell is up with Corle? My word that was a strange post!Honehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10305522904478032648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-29836425919700775262011-01-28T13:18:53.141-09:002011-01-28T13:18:53.141-09:00If you like gravel roads then Ashland would be the...If you like gravel roads then Ashland would be the perfect place to have the Championship. Ashland is beautiful but there is not enough singletrack to make a sweet 100 mile race there. Plus it will literally rain the entire time you are on the course (and if you are an idiot you will get lost and be in last place 2 hours into the race(even behind the course sweepers)). jk<br /><br />Also I like Straybulls idea of a separate governing body. It seems like Ultrarunning mag has all of the control. I mean they cant even get the UROY voting right. Robbins proved on his latest post that he should have been UROY. <br /><br />We need someone legit to step up and start a new organization. I am a pack leader for a local cub scout den so I think I have the experience necessary to be the legit person to get this going. <br /><br />Or since I suck at running maybe Karl should do it. He is pretty legit though he tends to piss people off with his directness. =)Honehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10305522904478032648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-6942754401799283502011-01-28T12:42:29.318-09:002011-01-28T12:42:29.318-09:00One other thought. What if this Championship revo...One other thought. What if this Championship revolved from one of the established 100 mile races to another each year. Each race organization could bid to be billed as "The Championship" by committing to have the mentioned characteristics like coverage, prize money, etc. Of course, this only works if the existing RD had interest in hosting this Championship. Having different courses each year may be exciting?<br /><br />As I write, the idea occurred to me that maybe it is time that ultra running in the country has a governing body apart from USATF. Definitely not anything like USATF, but an organization with the authority to have a National Championship among other functions. If nothing else, it will unite the ultra community and offer clear feedback to race directors. Just thoughts.Eric Strabelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16812545201148004451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-36369903288429428612011-01-28T12:23:40.984-09:002011-01-28T12:23:40.984-09:00As a fan of following all of the ultra distances, ...As a fan of following all of the ultra distances, I have to say that I'd like to see this Championship be the full monty: 100 miles. Mostly because it looks like the NF 50 mile championship is filling that shorter championship niche fairly well already.<br /><br />How would this fit into the calendar with all the other established races?Eric Strabelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16812545201148004451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-7848892001560194922011-01-28T07:45:22.634-09:002011-01-28T07:45:22.634-09:00I must say I really like almost all of the ideas b...I must say I really like almost all of the ideas being thrown around here. a championship type race at each of the popular trail ultra distances (50k, 50 mile, 100k, and 100 mile) would be awesome. I just think 100 mile is the one that would probably take off the quickest and gain the most attention.<br />I also like what Collin is saying about trying to draw a pretty large field but entirely of runners in the top 10% (or maybe 20) of runners. I'd love to see "championship" races that were really strong down to 100+ runners.<br /><br />also, i like the mention of ashland that karl makes. i must say that thought has crossed my mind more than once. Hal?Geoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03238385683129822240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-89531720311515474522011-01-28T06:25:59.663-09:002011-01-28T06:25:59.663-09:00Scott D - I had this VERY sort of conversation wit...Scott D - I had this VERY sort of conversation with a few of the elites in the sport not too long ago. The essence was essentially that Hardrock, WS100 ain't going to break away from their cultural roots to become a championship and so a "Fat Ass" event would need to go down. Except their would be bucks brought by the contenders, there would be results.<br /><br />For what it is worth, I don't expect that I would be a contender to win the event. But that does not mean I would not participate. I'd either race in it to bring money (that I know I would part with) to support the event (whatever any of the "buy in" is from any of the athletes), or work an aide station or pace someone. Particularly the inaugural event.<br /><br />As far as the 50 versus 100 - while I have done neither, I recognize the difference (50 miles!). Seriously - when we consider the differences in track between the 800 and the mile - those are often very different racers, racing tactics, etc. So there are TWO EVENTS. I say the same thing here. Yeah, I know we need to get one first, but saying it HAS to be a 100 or a 50 is sort of like saying it HAS to be a six day event.GZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12623054918799881730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-86632828156769012462011-01-28T05:49:18.725-09:002011-01-28T05:49:18.725-09:00The discussion continues.....
USATF is out, they ...The discussion continues.....<br /><br />USATF is out, they have silly rules for trail races, let them do their thing, we'll do ours. Sorry Bryon! :-)<br /><br />I know I'm biased on distance, but 100 miles is the distance in my opinion, because most of us who have run 100 miles, know that anything can happen to anyone. Crazy to say, but it's not too hard to bang out a 100k or 50 mile run without experience, we see it happen all the time. 100 miles is alot tougher. but that's my two cents. <br /><br />Terrain has to be variable as Geoff mentions, it can't be Hardrock course, cuz' it favors goats and hikers. It has to be runnable most of the way with a winning time around 17-19 hours. <br /><br />Anton, yah, Boulder is like SLC, forget it, won't happen here. :-)<br /><br />The reason I am able to put on the Speedgoat 50k is because Snowbird owns so much land they need easement to get to their mines. If Snowbird did not have that gig, I would not have the Speedgoat 50k. Ski area access is probably the answer, but brings in higher altitude which is fair to say that it is not fair to sea level runners. It has to be an equal, fair course for all. <br /><br />Burning River? Yah, a cool race, but it's too easy. Looking at winning records is a great guage of how hard the courses are. It would be easy to say the Bear 100 is perfect in terms of difficulty, but no towns....and in Utah. <br /><br />Internet: It's all about internet coverage. Look at the NYC Marathon last year, I could pay my 3-5 bucks I think and watch in stream online. That was very cool, why can't we have that happen in Ultras? I know we can't watch it from a pace vehicle, but the coverage with GPS devices could really make it interesting, with detailed areas of terrain coming up, who's up front. It's endless if it's done right. <br /><br />The idea of a bunch of us throwing down money and winner takes all....someone would get a wiff of that and try to stop it. If it were publicized it would not happen, thus not making it an event. It's a crazy circle. <br /><br />No pacers, headphones ok, and minimal crew aid is how I'd make it happen. Crew maybe 3X, every 25 ish miles or so, the rest we do on our own. <br /><br />Save the lord Corle...:-)<br /><br />We need to get Koerner to make it happen in Ashland.....Hal? <br /><br />My two cents..Speedgoat Karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06938342832238975059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-17466624026624183582011-01-27T19:37:45.849-09:002011-01-27T19:37:45.849-09:00I agree with every point (more or less), but one. ...I agree with every point (more or less), but one. I don't think there should be a single championship at just one of the three major distances (50, 100k, 100). I think there should be a championship at each of these. They can be completely different races held in different areas and be unrelated. However, like all sports with varying types of events (think of swimming) people will specialize in certain distances. This should be about who is the best ultra runner outright, but who is the best at a particular distance. And just think of the possibilities; someone could actually try to win at all three levels. Now that would be something to see.junhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03483517319335792896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-54470502757898193012011-01-27T19:35:32.846-09:002011-01-27T19:35:32.846-09:00I guess my point is that if you narrow it down to ...I guess my point is that if you narrow it down to people who, in a championship field, actually have the ability to outright win at 100 miles, we're looking at maybe Tony, Geoff, Kilian, Scott, Karl, and maybe a few more. Allowing the top 10% or so the opportunity to compete makes it a bigger field and lets all the "fast" people see where they line up.Collinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05882255798970434656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-20530042576562746492011-01-27T19:31:44.001-09:002011-01-27T19:31:44.001-09:00I like the idea of qualifying times for Boston sty...I like the idea of qualifying times for Boston style championship race; it makes it really simple. Maybe something with a sub 17 hour 100, sub 9 hour 100k, and sub 6:40 50 (on any course) for men, somewhat slower for women. These are times that an average runner couldn't run even on a totally flat course, but would allow the top 10% or so of ultrarunners to qualify, kind of like Boston. It could be first-come-first-serve after this point since 90% of the population would already be narrowed out. It then wouldn't be limited to strictly everyone that has the ability to win, but everyone would be relatively fast and even people with slower qualifying times would have an opportunity to place relatively well with a good breakthrough race.Collinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05882255798970434656noreply@blogger.com