tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post5795725493365944078..comments2024-02-29T02:06:59.726-09:00Comments on Fumbling Towards Endurance: It's Not About The Shoes... Or Is It?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-25056197893254848902012-01-17T12:06:33.393-09:002012-01-17T12:06:33.393-09:00Just came across this today. A few points:
1) You...Just came across this today. A few points:<br /><br />1) Your analogy about clothing and shoes doesn't work. Look at what clothing does. It is used for fashion, modesty and some level of protection from the elements - heat/cold/UV rays, etc. However, clothing does NOT restrict our movement in general. You can move your torso and arms just as effectively in a shirt as you can shirtless. You might need to make sure your pants are made for exercise, but even when wearing something as heavy as jeans, your legs aren't too constricted. When wearing gloves for protection, your hands and fingers are restricted to some degree, depending on what you are doing - going out in the cold, chopping wood, fighting fires or handling toxic materials. The hands though are *not* immobilized. And it bears saying that gloves are not worn during every waking moment. Shoes, on the other hand (foot?) are worn by many people during waking hours and the VAST majority of shoes almost completely immobilize the foot and toes. If you want proof of this, just look at injury rates of people that have worn foot coffins their whole lives and try to run 4-5 miles barefoot, or with barefoot-style shoes. Muscles, tendons, bones, etc. are not ready for that. You need to slowly build up distance and degrees of difficulty, just as you would for someone that had been in a coma for 6 months. That does NOT mean you must become a barefoot runner or wear sandals or Vibram shoes that have a 2mm sole. It does mean though that you can do those things but if you don't, you need to be very careful to select shoes that give your foot room to maneuver as it was designed, not wrapped in a cast.<br /><br />2) You are putting too much faith in those that design shoes. Entirely too much shoe "design" is done by the marketing team. Even running shoes are designed by people that are selling shoes, not by scientists in a lab evaluating all aspects of how the shoe performs in different circumstances.<br /><br />3) Cushioning is not bad, but you are missing the point about the problems it causes. Go jump up and down on a bed. What do your feet instinctively do? Push through. That creates more stress on the ankles, knees, and hips. It is well known that barefoot runners create less impact force than shod runners. Your feet may not feel it because they are wrapped in a marshmallow, but your other joins can tell the difference.<br /><br />If you are trying to run the fastest time for an ultra, you are on your own. People that try to push to those limits are consistently doing things that are not beneficial for their bodies long term. Weight lifting, pro football, Olympic events, etc. These people have full time physicians helping to mitigate the damage they are doing to their bodies. As you said, 99.99999999% of people never consider running an ultra. I submit to you though that 99.99999% of those that DO run ultras are all about finishing, not about winning. If you are competing at that level, you and your doctor will work it out. Otherwise, you have to take care of your own body, and that means not relying on the marketing departments of shoe companies, but doing your own research.Ed Hansberryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15035083038223523255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-20602087989303650422012-01-05T20:23:26.590-09:002012-01-05T20:23:26.590-09:00I saw Simon Gutierrez run a local 5K here in Alamo...I saw Simon Gutierrez run a local 5K here in Alamosa (part of an Adams State alumni event), in which he ran a 15:XX, pretty impressive by most standards<br /><a href="http://www.2joygame.com/" rel="nofollow"><strong>Buy WOW Gold</strong></a><br /><a href="http://www.4runescapemoney.com" rel="nofollow"><strong>Runescape Money</strong></a><br /><a href="http://rsmoneyfor4.jugem.jp/?cid=2" rel="nofollow"><strong>Here Comes The Runescape Money</strong></a>allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12226218067506054823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-51235335509484869202012-01-04T21:48:03.193-09:002012-01-04T21:48:03.193-09:00i think that a lot, but not everything, you wrote ...i think that a lot, but not everything, you wrote applies quite well to any type of running, specifically "distance running", a relative term related to what your average long distance run is.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.2joygame.com/" rel="nofollow"><strong>Buy WOW Gold</strong></a><br /><a href="http://www.4runescapemoney.com" rel="nofollow"><strong>Runescape Money</strong></a>iverenxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07218058905684682491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-86787330184571770492012-01-02T08:37:07.487-09:002012-01-02T08:37:07.487-09:00Great post Geoff!
About time minimalism was confr...Great post Geoff! <br />About time minimalism was confronted. In art it is indeed difficult to be minimal, very difficult. It is also difficult to produce more complex and elaborate forms. The point is to make good art whatever it takes. Just because our prehistoric ancestors ran barefoot is not a good enough argument to base a future running philosophy upon - however it does advertise the niche in the market. <br /><br />Hey I'm really looking forward to never eating cooked food again as did our ancestors before they domesticated fire as technology! How authentic will I be then?Tim Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07085134030876326412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-11797823088659610372012-01-02T08:20:17.656-09:002012-01-02T08:20:17.656-09:00Great post Geoff!
Am really looking forward to nev...Great post Geoff!<br />Am really looking forward to never eating cooked food again as my ancestors did before the invention of domestic fire - NOT! Cushioned shoes are a tool and our prehistoric relatives would have definitely utilised the odd discarded extra terrestrial trainer if available! TimTim Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07085134030876326412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-71192938879107045912011-12-20T06:32:23.019-09:002011-12-20T06:32:23.019-09:00The ability to run long distance safely is a long ...The ability to run long distance safely is a long term adaption. For those without the patience to allow those adaptions to happen we present to you the miracle of barefoot or minimally shod running.<br /><br />Seems we are always looking for the next magical elixer. Thank you Christopher McDougall.joerunnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13389876185022648932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-87979561306432680062011-12-19T18:39:30.247-09:002011-12-19T18:39:30.247-09:00I find it odd that you rule out minimalist for ult...I find it odd that you rule out minimalist for ultramarathons, as this is where they are having the most success. Champions are actually using/designing them. <br /><br />I think even Scott Jurek usually preferred racing flats for all distances before he got to make his own light weight trail running shoes. <br /><br />Personally I think long speed training and racing, like that done by Ryan Hall, would be far more difficult in minimalist than running twice as far half as fast even on tougher terrain. The impact forces simply must be much larger.Pepphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14708936976720665885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-49332456709514121712011-12-08T16:58:49.480-09:002011-12-08T16:58:49.480-09:00Hi Drew,
I've put a few people with broken...Hi Drew,<br /> <br /> I've put a few people with broken toes and stone bruises from VFF's in Inov-8 F-lite 230's and X-talons, and they seem to like them. The Road X 155 is also popular with people looking for a bit more cushioning.Ben Nephewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04819864580010023523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-88249608117102849522011-12-08T14:41:14.408-09:002011-12-08T14:41:14.408-09:00hey trailrunners,
would like to know what shoes y...hey trailrunners,<br /><br />would like to know what shoes you like in the minimalist category that you referred to about have slightly more cushion and heel lift than the VFF.<br /><br />thanksAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049687182793600729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-38442769467552610652011-12-08T06:15:16.813-09:002011-12-08T06:15:16.813-09:00Completely agree with you here Geoff. If you want...Completely agree with you here Geoff. If you want to run fast, you're going to want to have some shoe underfoot. You simply cannot run as fast with five fingers on as you can with minimal running shoes. I've always liked minimal, low to the ground, lightweight shoes - long before it became a trend. I like the low profile so I can feel more stable and less likely to turn an ankle and I like the lightness because that makes me feel fast. But, you can have lightness and relatively low profile and still have decent foot protection to run fast in for long distances. You can't do that with five fingers or barefoot. Not if you want to run fast. Like you said, you'll know when you find the right shoe with the right blend of protection, lightness and low profile.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-29984832473699965752011-12-07T16:32:59.905-09:002011-12-07T16:32:59.905-09:00People defending heel striking, really? Try this.....People defending heel striking, really? Try this...with bare feet on a hard surface, jump up and down on the balls of your feet. Then jump up and down on your heels. See which one feels better. But hey, if it works for you. It's like a golfer with a "bad" swing who still hits the ball straight - some people can get away with it. <br /><br />Agreed that moving to lower and lower drops should be done slowly. The extra stress on the calf muscle? Tends to build stronger calves. <br /><br />As for the strike definitions: heel striking = landing on the heel; forefoot strike = landing on ball of foot; midfoot strike = landing simultaneously on the ball and heel of the foot. <br /><br />PeaceDavid Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17399996391635073545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-67741304174352300492011-12-07T10:48:28.668-09:002011-12-07T10:48:28.668-09:00You are on a roll with hilarious blog posts! I be...You are on a roll with hilarious blog posts! I believe you have sealed UBOY and they are engraving your name on the trophy!<br />Couple comments. I'm curious as to those that are associating heel striking as a negative thing. From a biomechanics standpoint if you ARE NOT over striding and your heel is striking underneath the knee and body there is no science/proof indicating this is detrimental to you. Look at video of Meb or the worlds top marathoners. They are heel strikers. They just kiss their heel on the ground, with an efficient strike and transition through the gait phase. <br /><br />Question on mid foot striking. Wikipedia defines it basically as landing flat footed or the entire foot striking the ground at once. I know some people talk about mid foot striking being that as it sounds, landing on the middle part of your foot first. I would like an explanation on how that is physically possible. The three landing options are heel strike, forefoot strike or entire foot at once. Unless you wear a convex shoe then you can mid-foot strike.<br /><br />The biggest message is of course if it works for you, don't change it! The argument of having less weight makes sense to a degree as well to the point until the machine breaks down cause it didn't have enough protection and you don't make the finish line.<br /><br />If your changing the pitch of your shoe from the traditional 12mm to say a 4mm just use caution as that is going to put a lot of stress on the achillies and calves. You didn't jump into running by starting with 100 miler (I'm sure there are some that actually did!) but textbook says start with a 50k and get comfortable with that before trying a Hardrock or Wasatch etc.<br /><br />Happy trails and happy holidays!<br />RyneRyne Melcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14528707579453229351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-46537211509775380212011-12-06T06:30:40.567-09:002011-12-06T06:30:40.567-09:00This is a great read, thanks for the post Geoff. ...This is a great read, thanks for the post Geoff. I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put it into this rather than just jumping on one side of the argument and railing against the other like so many have done. This discussion about footwear is a nuanced one, and, frankly, not being an ultra runner I never considered this part of the subject before. <br /><br />I did weigh in (in a much less thorough way!) on the subject a few weeks ago on my blog: www.atriathletesblog.com.<br /><br />ThxAndrew Zitofskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13620829812729530943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-56976560227326530932011-12-05T20:06:26.734-09:002011-12-05T20:06:26.734-09:00Appreciate the thoughts shared here, as always. I...Appreciate the thoughts shared here, as always. I'm not remotely at this level of performance and doubt I'll rearrange the priorities in my life to get as close to my personal peak performance so my opinion's not worth as much, but I agree that the key thing is to experiment, find what works, and to expect that the same things don't work for everyone. The aspect of the barefoot running trend that is most unappealing is the the attitude that it's a panacea, which I think is nonsense.<br /><br />With that leadin, mostly I wanted to share this topical video which is obnoxious but, I think, very funny:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=theHXQP9Bo0Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06255237097728001401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-46583976545540508692011-12-05T12:32:45.344-09:002011-12-05T12:32:45.344-09:00Ha, IRONIC! the above comment happens to come from...Ha, IRONIC! the above comment happens to come from Ray Krolewicz- who yesterday, during 100, told me about pushing Ann Trason to a record back in the day. He knows his stuff.(Ask anyone!) And coincidentally I was about to write this: yesterday, in Ancient Oaks 100, my friend (RayK) was wearing 2 different shoes. One of the shoes I believe he picked up from GOODWILL! He explained to me that it was like staggering tires on a race car. Ray is an ultra legend no doubt. He can give a reason for everything he does-backed by years of experience and success at winning ultras. Talk to the guys who've actually been winning and racing ultras since before we were born and get some really solid feedback!Ashley Ringo Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09698782138915606897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-23379664136158055722011-12-05T08:14:11.450-09:002011-12-05T08:14:11.450-09:00I'm glad Dean said something about it not matt...I'm glad Dean said something about it not mattering where you strike, it has to do with efficiency in the strike and stride. I happen to be a heel striker, it has worked for me for 40+ years of running. I used to do everything barefoot, played baseball, ran, etc. One day in a 15 miler (in 1972) I got huge blisters on my feet from running a road race barefoot. I put shoes on after that and have stuck with them since. I usually get my shoes (after someone else has broken them in) from thrift stores. Sometimes my shoes do not even match. None of these things has ever affected my ability to run 100 miles, or fast or slow.<br /><br />All of that has to do with training. If you do enough training the shoe really does not matter, too little training and the shoe becomes another of the many placebos we have embraced in our sport.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-88666555226641072532011-12-05T07:58:49.934-09:002011-12-05T07:58:49.934-09:00I'm glad Dean said something about it not matt...I'm glad Dean said something about it not mattering where you strike, it has to do with efficiency in the strike and stride. I happen to be a heel striker, it has worked for me for 40+ years of running. I used to do everything barefoot, played baseball, ran, etc. One day in a 15 miler (in 1972) I got huge blisters on my feet from running a road race barefoot. I put shoes on after that and have stuck with them since. I usually get my shoes (after someone else has broken them in) from thrift stores. Sometimes my shoes do not even match. None of these things has ever affected my ability to run 100 miles, or fast or slow.<br /><br />All of that has to do with training. If you do enough training the shoe really does not matter, too little training and the shoe becomes another of the many placebos we have embraced in our sport.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200107306914847635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-29215962302785842032011-12-05T06:49:57.844-09:002011-12-05T06:49:57.844-09:00Great post!
To me it is refreshing the see this c...Great post!<br /><br />To me it is refreshing the see this coming from a pro runner. This echoes what has been my gut feel of the trend since it began. I've read "the book" and also found it entertaining, but the notion of running an ultra, like Wasatch, barefoot is laughable to me. I think you are dead-on in your assessment of the trend. <br /><br />I've tried some minimal shoes - MT100 - and did some marathon distance trail runs in them back east. But when I got back to the Wasatch Front they just were enough should for me on the trails out here. <br /><br />Thanks for a great post.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15349301655222821999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-29575460064918660392011-12-04T16:15:08.983-09:002011-12-04T16:15:08.983-09:00Just to correct a common misconception:
YES, for...Just to correct a common misconception:<br /><br /><br />YES, forefoot or midfoot strike means LESS impact forces sent to the knees and hips...<br /><br />HOWEVER<br /><br />It also means a corresponding INCREASE in impact forces felt in the ankle and calf. This is a sneaky fact that often gets totally lost in the conversation. <br /><br />(Look it up if you don't believe me)<br /><br />THE DATA<br /><br />On the most efficient running form, etc... is also shocking to those who haven't read anything other than "the book". <br /><br />I'll give you a hint: It's not about where on your foot you land. It's about your cadence, the placement of your center of gravity, and the quality of your particular tendons and muscles.<br /><br />Great post, Geoff.Deanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10902383316597908301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-83591121297546546312011-12-04T03:16:58.308-09:002011-12-04T03:16:58.308-09:00I recently ran a 100k in VFFs(sport treks) on some...I recently ran a 100k in VFFs(sport treks) on some of the gnarliest trails possible, and my feet felt great at the end. I had zero blisters and no sore spots. I feel that these provide enough protection even on the sharpest rocks. Regular shoes cause me to roll my ankles as the cushioning seems to act as a lever. On relatively smooth hard mountain courses(such as Wasatch) with lots of descents I do find cushioning to be an advantage and almost necessary, but on very technical terrain I am way faster wearing VFFs. Granted I have spent a lot of my summers barefoot as much as possible, and racing flats have been around forever. I say use what works.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00652048498318730911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-47695160958335999042011-12-03T04:06:16.556-09:002011-12-03T04:06:16.556-09:00Great conversation here. Lots of good points by ev...Great conversation here. Lots of good points by everybody!<br />I struggled finding the "right" shoe for awhile, then decided to approach it scientifically. I went to our local running store, where the owner put me through an arch scan and a gait analysis. It turned out that my left leg is a bit longer than my right, my left leg rotates outward during extension and to compensate (keep me running straight) the left foot pronates pretty nastily on footstrike. Minimalist shoes would be of no help for sure.<br />I settle on a pair of NF Double Tracks and so far they have served me well.<br />I guess my point is that if you want to go minimalist, take the time to get your feet and stride assessed or you may be doing yourself some serious harm!<br />Thanks for the post, goeff and good luck today!Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12538956941077144152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-17376117571967550102011-12-02T18:48:17.141-09:002011-12-02T18:48:17.141-09:00After reading your post again, I pretty much agree...After reading your post again, I pretty much agree with you. You said "super minimal" and "extremely minimal" - which I agree in a 100 mile race over tough, rocky, rugged terrain doesn't make much sense and the cost will outweigh the benefits, especially over the last 30 miles. I once wore VFF for 37 miles of a trail race and had to switch out, feet hurt like hell. Also you acknowledged, under 3 hrs, a more minimal approach makes sense, so we agree there. <br /><br />As a minimalist runner, I do want good protection for a technical ultra of 50+ miles. But what I really really don't want is that 10-12mm heel drop. What Born To Run (and the experiences of many) showed pretty clearly is that the human foot wasn't meant to run on a propped up heel. It promotes heel striking and interferes with natural, good mechanics. So I think this all really comes down to the drop, and it's where Montrail is falling short - way short. They put out a Rogue Racer with a 4mm drop and I'd totally buy it. If Montrail continues to resist the low drop trend - which you yourself said was going to be around for years to come - they will lose a healthy chunk of market $hare, in this runner's opinion.David Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17399996391635073545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-38709824737383026912011-12-02T12:56:50.483-09:002011-12-02T12:56:50.483-09:00so i have been running in the nb minimus for about...so i have been running in the nb minimus for about 4 months now and still get very sore calves when i go over 6 miles. my feet have become stronger though and am able to run over rocky terrain without my feet getting sore. can only go about 12 miles before calves have had it but my feet are fine at that distance. i planned on being transitioned into the minimus by march for chuckunut but this topic has brought up great insight and may help me re-evaluate my situation. <br /><br />right now i have to switch back to my vasques about every third day or switch into them for my longer runs. but it has taught me to mid foot strike and i feel that is the most important aspect at longer distances. <br /><br />so maybe i need a shoe with minimal padding and a very slight heel lift? any suggestions?<br /><br />good luck this weekend.<br /><br />and it's good to hear from cloud again, isn't it?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049687182793600729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-84882485682790526022011-12-02T11:51:13.369-09:002011-12-02T11:51:13.369-09:00This is wat too long a comment, but are my thought...This is wat too long a comment, but are my thoughts:<br /><br />When training, I used to wear shoes as to what my feet were feeling like for that day. Let me explain: If my feet were feeling reasonably fresh, I often wore my NB MT110 (and were my first choice of shoes), if tired - Asics trail runners, even road shoe Nimbus 12, and sometimes just to switch it up Cascadias. However I was wearing the Cascadias for a while but they don't seem to agree with my feet on runs longer than 20-30 miles here on O'ahu. NB MT110, I loved but felt were good to about 35 miles. So I bought a pair of Mountain Masochist. I know it is your fav shoe but I had heard some good reviews so decided to give it a go. While here in HI it is best to have a shoe that drains well and grippy for slippery rocks and muddy trail, the Mountain Masochist does not. On top of that they are quite heavy once dipped ankle deep in mud compared to NB MT110. That said, the shoe fits what you described about a shoe that delays fatigue and is comfortable for the long haul. So while training for the HURT 100 these are the shoes I love now even though there are other shoes that might seem more logical (for grip, drainage, etc.), but my feet feel great no matter how much I run in them. So they are my choice shoes right now, and I will wear them for HURT 100. <br />ALOHAAlexander Nunnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08461271136023312029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3807027359418593456.post-31392668892007296472011-12-02T08:36:13.466-09:002011-12-02T08:36:13.466-09:00Geoff ya its me again, yer buddy Cloud. Good fortu...Geoff ya its me again, yer buddy Cloud. Good fortune tomorrow in Frisco!! Yah you won uroc but only cause Wardian took a wrong turn. Sorta a hollow victory as its said. On the topic of shoes, um why do you wear tanks?<br /><br />Go Killian!<br /><br />CloudCloudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13774969867709228313noreply@blogger.com